Yes I agree. Asking Christ into our life is a way of agreeing with Him that we are sinful, that He is perfect, and that He will save us if we trust in Him. Yes you are right.

Yes again, you are right about repentance. Technicalities don’t matter. But we must repent and trust in Christ. I agree with you sir.

However, all I am saying is that God grants us the ability to repent. He gives what He commands. He grants what He requires from us. It’s best understood in Jesus Christ. God demands holiness and perfection, right? So He sends Himself, Jesus Christ, to an unholy imperfect people so that they can become perfect and holy. We become that at the moment Jesus Christ dies on the cross and we later believe. Then the Holy Spirit sanctifies and perfects us until we meet Jesus face to face and become glorified.

So we respond to the Gospel, yes. But only because God’s spirit drew us to Himself. Read John 6 & 10.

thanks for stopping by.

Repentance – and the question is not really whether it comes before or after – goes hand in hand with acceptance. Repentance is about a change in direction. A turning point. Accepting Christ IS a turning point. Repentance IS the turning point. Believing IS the turning point. You either BELIEVE and want Jesus or you don’t. Romans 10 beginning with verse 8 says this. “But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?”

These verses show us we have to RESPOND – first we believe, say YES inwardly – then we confess/profess our faith. I don’t think this means if we cannot talk, we can’t be saved. It would make no sense to believe and put our faith in something as life changing as Christ and not profess that would it? In other words, if we had no desire to communicate that but yet had the ability to do so, do we really believe it? Has Christ REALLY come INTO our life?

I hope and trust that in some way I have helped in this discussion. I don’t have all the answers and perhaps less knowledge than many who will read this. With all our candles giving light, maybe we can all better see and understand.

Harsh.

I have good reasons and good arguments, or at least I think so. I have opened my mind to all religions. I do not disbelieve it is more of the fact that there are so many religions I haven’t chosen yet. To me the close minded one is the one who believes that his religion is right and that all other people are silly for not believing or not caring.

2.Apathy
“ I would say that at least 50% of the people who don’t believe simply don’t care. ” I would say that you are wrong. I would go as far to say that in my experience it has been the case that the average atheist is far more knowledgeable about christianity than the average christian.
“ They don’t care about God, Christ, Morals, Ethics, anything. ” How exactly is not caring about god/christ equivalent to not caring about morals/ethics?? The point that you seem to be arguing is that an atheist cannot be moral – something I find more than a little ironic given the disgraceful ethical acts condoned in the bible. I think Weinberg said it best with “ Good people will do good things, and bad people will do bad things. But for good people to do bad things — that takes religion. ”

3.Deception
“ Their unbelief will never be victorious over our unshakeable faith. ” Right here you manage to sum up elegantly why I think religion is a bad thing in and of itself. You are not receptive to logic or evidence and will always have a blind belief in something that clearly dictates how you live you life. That someone would behave a certain regardless of any evidence, any logic or any rationale argument is absolutely frightening. I am an atheist and should anyone present me with reasonable evidence for something then I will have to consider it. I am open to evidence and nothing I believe can be described as “unshakeable”. This is more of a virtue than blind faith because any truth that cannot be questioned cannot be truth.

Final words
There is one thing that I have noticed about people – they are never static. People are either improving their morality and behaviour or they are in decline. Dogmatism doesn’t lead to salvation, only dogmatism.

As long as there are religious zealots preaching their holy texts may there also be free thinkers subjecting those texts to the scrutiny of logic.

-suzanne
*read your bible daily and obey what you read*

John 5: 37-41

37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. 38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. 41 I receive not honour from men.

Also, Dr. Hutson’s interpretations of the verses are incorrect. In context every one of them is talking about repenting of sin (not false beleifs).

(Matt. 3:7-9)- John the Baptist is clearly saying this. “Oh, you are here. Who told you to flee from God’s wrath. Look you need to bear fruit of repentance before I baptize you. And don’t think you are “saved” because you are descendants of Abraham. God came make some of those from rocks if He wants.” He wasn’t telling them to repent of a false idea. He was telling them to repent — of sin, like in every part of the Old and New Testaments.

“If he believes that the Godhead is like unto gold or silver or stone, graven by art and man’s devices, he must repent” (Acts 17:30) — Yeah, idolatry is a sin that needs to be repented of!!

(Heb. 6:1) – Dead works could be works that we do in our sin (before being born again) or works that people think will save them. Both are sin. That is why they must be repented of.

(Luke 13:3) – Jesus is obviously making a general statement about their repentance that has nothing to do with their specific false ideas. They said, “yeah but aren’t those folks extra bad if that happened to them.” Jesus says, “Forget them, unless YOU repent, you WILL PERISH.” He saying stop comparing yourself to others based upon circumstances (“GOd sends the rain on the just and unjust”). They aren’t worse people because something bad happened. God allows horrible things to happen to righteous people (JOB). He was just trying to lead them to repentance.

REPENTANCE IS… absolutely not the same as belief. Unless Jesus meant to say “The time is fulfilled, the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand, therefore, believe and believe the gospel.” Repentance is the FRUIT of regeneration (being born again) that He talks of in John. The concept of repentance is in the Gospel and Epistles of John in the concept of abiding in Him (more to come on this). Unless you repent, you will perish. WHy? Because you haven’t been born again. To take John and toss out the clear teaching of the other 3 gospels is unwise, to say the least.

Finally, why would Jesus teach that we should repent in order to be saved (or avoid Judgment or be ready for the coming of the Kingdom – both allusions to salvation) if it isn’t necessary? Why would the apostles do the same? WHy would God come to earth as man tell His followers to preach repentance in His name if it weren’t necessary? It is part of the Great Commission for crying out loud (luke 24:47).

I know what you are thinking? You will say He meant to preach repentance of false teachings and ideas. But this is such a mediocre understanding of what Scripture teaches on repentance. And how does repenting of false ideas lead to forgiveness of sin and salvation (Luke 24:47, 2 Cor. 7:10)

Instead of listening to a ’scholar’, why don’t you personally do a systematic study of repentance in Scripture yourself and without preconceived notions decide what the Holy Spirit is teaching you. And don’t just look for the word repentance, look for the concept as well. It is in the Old Testament a lot more than what that guy says. The book of Psalms, and the prophets are riddled with it.

– Josh

Also I agree there are far too many false converts but the solution is not that people have to repent before they get saved; it is that they must really believe with their heart not just in their head! That belief will bring a changed life but it is not part of their salvation but their sanctification.

Dr. Hutson’s article below:

First, no one is saved by turning; he is saved by trusting. You are teaching works and reformation for salvation. To say that the word “repent” means to turn from sin is to make God Himself a sinner. The word “repent” in its various forms is found 46 times in the Old Testament. Of that number, God Himself does the repenting 28 times and man, only 9 times. The other 9 times tells of things of which God will not repent. If “repent” means to turn from sin, then you have God turning from sin 28 times in the Old Testament and man turning from sin only 9 times.

We have no right to attach our own definition to the word. “Repentance” in its various forms is found 65 times in the New Testament. Fifty-eight of those times it is translated from the Greek words metanioa and metanoeo. According to the Greek of New Testament Words, metanioa is the noun of metanoe, and both words mean identically the
same thing. The basic definition of the two words is “to change one’s mind.” That is the definition from a Greek dictionary, not my definition. The definition from the Strong’s Concordance of metanoeo is “to think differently or afterwards, that is, reconsider.”

Traditions die hard. Just because you have taught all your life that repentance is turning from sin does not meant that it is true. Anyone who teaches that repentance is turning from sin is teaching reformation for salvation and not salvation by grace through faith: that includes you or anyone else who attaches to the word “repentance” the wrong definition and preaches repentance as reformation or turning from sins.

I hope this is a fair statement but from what I see on your site we are to call people to turn from sin and to Jesus. Let me ask you honestly and fairly, have you turned from sin? If your answer is yes, then I have another question: Have you sinned since you have been saved? Now if you have, then you haven’t turned from your sin. You have only turned from the sins that you have not committed since you have been saved. Since nobody lives perfect, then exactly how many sins must one turn from in order to be saved? And where in the Bible do you find Scripture to support such a confusing teaching?

First John 1:10 says, “If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” And I must remind you that 1 John is written to believers. The “we” has reference to Christians, not unbelievers.

Now, if you have not turned from your sins, why in the name of common sense do
you tell sinners that they must turn from their sins in order to be saved? It is unscriptural and wrong. Ephesians 2:8 and 9 plainly says, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. “

I might be wrong but it seems that you say repent and believe are two different things. If that be true, then Jesus did not tell Nicodemus how to be born again; He only told him to believe. Nowhere in John, chapter 3, did He mention the word “repent” or “repentance.” As a matter of fact, those words are not even found in the Gospel of John. Yet the word “believe” is found in that Gospel more than 90 times!

When Nicodemus wanted to know how to be born again, what did Jesus tell him? “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in hi should not perish, but have eternal life: (vss. 14, 15).
In verse 16 He said, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
In verse 18, He divided the whole world into two groups and said, “He that believeth
on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he
hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

Now my dear brother, how can you read these verses and say that repentance is not
included in believing? If repentance is necessary to salvation-and it is-either Jesus did
not tell Nicodemus how to be born again, since He didn’t use the word “repent,” or He
did tell him how to be born again, and the word “repentance” is included in the word
“believe,” which Jesus did use.

Are you saying that Jesus deliberately deceived Nicodemus because He didn’t ask
him to repent? Surely you wouldn’t think such a thing, yet that is the conclusion you
have you have reached.

We often hear the expression, “Repent of your sins,” and I don’t see anything wrong
with using that expression. But nowhere does the Bible say, Repent of your sins.” When
the Bible uses the word “repent”, what the repentance is about is always
determined by the context.

In Matthew 3:7-9, some religious men believed they were going to Heaven because
Abraham was their father, the father of the Jewish race. God chose the Jewish race and established their religion, and these men believed that because they were members of the right religion they would go to Heaven. John the Baptist told them that they must repent of their false ideas about how to go to Heaven, that is, that one goes to Heaven simply because he is a member of a certain race or religion.

Luke 13:3 is often used when preaching on repentance: “…except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” But exactly what were they to repent about? They supposed that certain Galileans were sinners above all the Galileans because they suffered such a terrible fate. Pilate had mingled their blood with sacrifices. They also supposed that eighteen people upon whom the tower in Siloam fell were sinners above all men because they suffered such severe judgment. And Jesus answered in verse 5, “I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
Now here is the situation. These religious people thought that certain others were being punished because they were greater sinners than anyone else. By this same reasoning, they thought that they could escape punishment and judgment by their own righteousness to save them, they would perish in Hell.

Men do not go to Hell because they live wickedly; neither do men go to Heaven because they live right. Jesus told these religious men who were wrong in their teaching that unless they repented they would perish just like those whom they thought were great sinners.

Acts 17:30 says, “And the times of this ignorance God winked at: but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent.” What the people in this verse were to repent of or change their mind about is clear from verse 29: “We ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.”

Act 17:30 calls on men to repent or change their mind about God and see that He is
not a graven image made of gold, silver or stone; but that He is a living God who is going to judge the world. Verse 31 says, “Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. “
Hebrews 9:9-14 calls sacraments or religious rituals through which men try to gain Heaven “dead works.” In Hebrews 6:1, this same writer tells us that the foundation of the Christian faith is “repentance from dead works, and faith toward God.”

These Scriptures make it plain that one must stop trusting in dead works (religious rituals, sacraments, etc.) and put his faith or trust in God. “Repentance from dead works” means to change one’s mind about dead works and see that he cannot be saved by works and thus trust Christ alone for salvation.

Summing up these various instances from the Bible, it is clear to see that, if a man believes his religion or race will get him to Heaven, he must repent (Matt. 3:7-9).

If he believes that living good or righteous will get him to Heaven, he must repent (Matt. 3:7-9)

If he believes that the Godhead is like unto gold or silver or stone, graven by art and man’s devices, he must repent (Acts 17:30)

And if he believes that man must perform some religious ritual or sacrament to be saved, then he must repent of these dead works and trust only in Christ for salvation (Heb. 6:1).
It is our studied opinion that that the greatest need for repentance among religious people today is the need to repent about wrong teaching on repentance, or else he will lead men into Hell by leading them to trust in their own reformation for salvation.

It is repent or perish, but be sure you repent about the right thing. A man is not saved by reforming his life or by turning from certain sins. A man is saved by trusting Jesus Christ and Him alone for salvation. The Bible plainly says in John 3:26, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. “ Faith in Christ and Him alone is the clear Bible teaching regarding the matter of salvation.

God bless you,

This will be an interesting dialogue; hopefully the above comments give us some where to start.